Al Kinnear
On this episode of Return on Intelligence, we speak with Josh Remerowksi Senior Director, Learning and Leadership Experience at Fortive. He joins us to discuss the power of empathy within a learning and development culture and motivating learners through knowledge and curiosity. Well, good afternoon. I'd like to welcome Josh Remerowski, the senior director of learning and leadership experience at Fortive.
Al Kinnear
Josh, welcome.
Joshua Remerowski
How are you doing?
Al Kinnear
I'm doing great. I'm doing great. How are you today?
Joshua Remerowski
Good. It's wonderful. And, 100 degrees in Dallas, Texas, so can't complain.
Al Kinnear
Well, you look you don't look like you're in 100 degree, environment right now, so looks like you're doing well. So I'd like to again welcome you to the podcast. And today's today's episode is going to be about the power of empathy within a learning and development culture. and in the past couple of weeks, in preparation for this, episode, I've been speaking to a number of, of learning and development, leaders and directors that I know and a few of them have suggested that we might want to start with just defining empathy within the, you know, the culture of, of learning and development and how we look at it from an L&D standpoint.
Al Kinnear
So if I could ask you, you know, your view on, on, on empathy.
Joshua Remerowski
Sure. I think a lot of people get empathy confused with sympathy. So, you know, when you look at sympathy from almost like feeling pity or feeling sorry for someone, I think you hear that a lot. When someone experiences loss and you could see that in a learning and development context or leadership development context, where, you know, you might feel sorry that someone's not getting certain opportunities to develop themselves or grow their skills and capability, or they don't have the tech enablement to do something.
Joshua Remerowski
But really, as as leaders, when you shift from sympathy to entities to actually trying to put yourself into that person's shoes. So having the emotional capacity as a leader, no matter how close to the business or far away from the business you are in, allows you to really say, okay, I am trying to understand where you're at with whatever this is.
Joshua Remerowski
So what is what would it be like for me, or was it like for me to not get those development experiences? What was it like for me when we didn't have the technology that made learning accessible? What was it like for me, when people didn't pour into my development or mentorship or growth, I had made the barriers to success and leadership a lot more difficult.
Joshua Remerowski
And so when you really start putting yourself in the shoes of your employees, whether they're front line middle managers, interns, executives, that's where you can build empathy by truly seeking to understand where they're at in their journey. And I think it's a it's a critical component. And it can't get lost. I think as you move further in your career, depending on what your role or responsibility is, some people will just put it upon those individuals.
Joshua Remerowski
And, you know, I'm sorry you're not getting this opportunity, but it is what it is. Or that's just the way things are. And so that's how I separate the two. And I think it's just really important for learning and development, leadership development, talent development professionals and really any executive to really try to have that empathy for how they develop, grow and nurture the talent within their organization.
Al Kinnear
Yeah, that's so true. And one of the great things I read about empathy was, you know, someone commented that empathy is the balance of asking and telling. And I think in leadership it's important to, you know, really reflect on that. That's emotional intelligence, really that that together with empathy. you know, when you talk about the balance of asking and telling and not using, you know, leading questions or closed questions in your discussions, I really think that that that has a role to play within empathy as well.
Al Kinnear
And do you agree?
Joshua Remerowski
Yeah. I think. There is the kind of approach that many leaders may take, and this is almost from that mentor lens where it's telling people how I used to do it, versus what you're talking about, which is truly asking and seeking to understand, about what someone needs. And, you know, my lived experience is different than your lived experience.
Joshua Remerowski
My development needs are different than your development needs. Some things overlap. And so my ability to have humility and that emotional intelligence, to your point, to ask questions and seek to understand what you know, what that learner's needs are, are a critical component to empathy, right? Because that truly means I am trying to put myself in your shoes by learning the things that are required, rather than just saying, this is what I've experienced.
Joshua Remerowski
This is the best path to go and this is the way we should do things. So I would wholeheartedly agree with it. And I think that's just that's why you have two years and one mouth and as a leader. But the more listening you can do, the better.
Al Kinnear
Yeah. The classic 8020 rule. Listen 80% and speak 20 I, I completely subscribe to that. And, I mean, I ran a sales organization. I would preach that day in and day out that that we do have two years. And the 80% rule is, is one that, you know, just has so many applications. kind of backpedaling. I'd love to talk about, you know, could you share with our listeners your background and how you got started in learning and development, and if you've had any moments across your career that really shaped or influenced the way you approach learning and development today?
Joshua Remerowski
Sure. So my background's nontraditional. I would I would say from most learning and development professionals, and that's just been my experience, at least from working with many and networking with many. I started my career as a grown adult in the workplace, leaving college as a truck driver. So I started driving trucks for Fedex ground, in a temporary role to a full time role.
Joshua Remerowski
And then I moved into doing field technician work for DirecTV. So in the field, going to customers houses, troubleshooting equipment, driving a van all day, things of that nature. And I shifted into a small business sales role, where I was at Comcast, I did that for a short period of time. and all those things kind of shaped me into, like, what I knew I didn't want to do full time.
Joshua Remerowski
Like, I didn't want to drive a truck. I didn't want to do field work. I didn't want to go do small business sales, necessarily. And, you know, I kind of really thought about what path do I want to go on? And is there an organization that can maybe provide some of that growth? That led me to Verizon, where I ended up starting what I would consider my learning and development journey, and I started an entry level, you know, position there.
Joshua Remerowski
And as I started seeing these leaders, careers, even leaders that were in sales organizations, or leading them, like yourself, a lot of them at some point in their career, even the ones that were leading panels in that organization had made a pit stop in training and development, or learning and development. And I always found that very curious of like, why were they doing this and what was the value, you know, prop for them in their career.
Joshua Remerowski
And it's really like understanding how to develop people and build build talent. And I mean, that is really the differentiator when it comes to building really powerful organizations. And any company is not only developing them, but building these really robust pipelines that allow you to have meaningful succession and continue to serve traverse the future of work. So I ended up getting like a new employee experience supervisor position.
Joshua Remerowski
And, you know, that was kind of my first HR gig with onboarding. And that really just started my journey, about 11 years ago at this point, into learning and development. And so I became a senior trainer, and I loved that doing leadership training and customer service training, sales training, you know, all the things and communicate, pull things out of people through questioning and scratch stretching.
Joshua Remerowski
My my skill set. And really, my big moment was when I moved from that position into a development position where we were building out a leadership academy at that company. And that's where I really started to see the broader disconnect between executives and the front line employee to what they think they need. And a lot of this, because what we call here at Ford is not going to gemba and not being as closely connected to the business.
Joshua Remerowski
And and so for me, that's where I knew like growing up in companies and doing front line work and not getting an MBA and getting placed into some high paying job right out of college, that, there was something different I could bring to this, you know, to this space and potentially how I approach things. And part of that is obviously having more empathy for what life really is like for someone making $15 an hour and living paycheck to paycheck and trying to build skills and potentially start from nothing because, you know, they had to take on massive amounts of student loans and maybe didn't get the quality of education to get a scholarship or
Joshua Remerowski
care from their parents or, you know, whatever box you want to check. And so that was the big moment. It took it for me to like, hey, there's clearly a different approach for how we have to think about employees experiences, how we develop them, how we listen to them, and how we can try to promote broader, you know, offerings rather than just developing or talking about the potential people in the company.
Joshua Remerowski
Because at the end of the day, those aren't the people that typically stay, they have more options. And so you want to develop as many people as you can, to promote that type of equitable learning environment throughout your organization. And so eventually I, I went to Walmart where I am, you know, their head of learning and development for their.com space.
Joshua Remerowski
and then got promoted quite a few times, became their director of learning and development, became a director of Change management strategy, communications. And my last few months at an HR, technology team. And then I knew I wanted to get into a different space and learning and development and serve a different type of of customer versus telecom and retail for e-commerce.
Joshua Remerowski
And for that, I had this really, you know, awesome opportunity to come work for a company that really is like no other that I've seen where you have these, these 18 companies that do a variety of different things, from health care software to industrial applications of software. I, you know, explosive technologies, precision technologies, you know, I mean, when you look at some of the stuff we do with the sensing tech and other electronic, you know, things with, like our company fluke that, you know, whether it's sensing heat or solar, or frequencies.
Joshua Remerowski
I mean, there are so many brilliant people that that work here, and you have to do a lot of different things than what you do somewhere else, which is starts with making product, innovating product, not selling someone else's product that that they make. And so it was a really interesting opportunity to come work in this kind of decentralized, you know, system, really, of a company where, they all run their own panels.
Joshua Remerowski
And so that's led me here. And I really think my learning and development journey was shaped by being an athlete for, for most of my, my life and playing baseball. And it was shaped by the people that actually spent the time to help me develop. That's where I got caught the most and understood, what my needs were by listening to me and not just telling me how yet again, telling me how they would do it or or not do it.
Joshua Remerowski
You know, my body's not the same. My brain's not the same. My capabilities aren't the same. So, applying a lot of those things into how, you know, now where I haven't didn't have influence or may have influence for, you know, even my own organization, because you can't influence everything even when you own it. you know, that's why you have leaders and things that own their parts of their business and what direction they want to go.
Joshua Remerowski
But it's really like making sure we try to put ourselves in their shoes, give them much development and access to as many things as we possibly can.
Al Kinnear
I think it's, amazing. Our backgrounds are more similar than you might know. I often kind of hang my leadership hat on the fact that I grew up in a hockey dressing room, and I say that all the time. It's been on other podcast episodes and, you know, you learn early, early in life to round your corners in a dressing room of 22 different individuals.
Al Kinnear
And I was lucky enough to often be Captain of a team. So you, you, you start learning how to kind of lead, right? You at a young age, you learn how to lead and you really see what doesn't work early. And then, you know, through sport, you kind of learn these leadership moments that you can apply it. you know, later on in your career, I'd also point towards coaching, like I started coaching early in my life as well.
Al Kinnear
And, and, you know, that's where I got an interest in kind of learning and development, through coaching of other athletes. And I wasn't the greatest hockey player, but I loved it and I had a passion for it. But when I, you know, reflect back on, you know, what what was a real groundbreaking moment for myself, I have to tell you, and you'll probably laugh at this, but my father, when I was in grade nine and he pulled me from the summer cottage where the rest of my family would enjoy the entire summer, and he got me a job at his friend's oil refinery, and I packed boxes for four summers, in a
Al Kinnear
sweltering environment of a blue collar manufacturing factory. and I have to tell you, I learned so much. I would have to say about empathy, but also just the ability to relate with others. The same lessons I learned in the hockey dressing room. I learned, in working in a factory. There was it was quite an experience.
Al Kinnear
So, our backgrounds that they are similar, they're not, you know, they're just they're just very similar. And I find that, it's very interesting. when you mention 18 different companies, that are under the learning umbrella at Ford of, like, what a gamut, right? Like what an opportunity. you mentioned different skill sets and requirements and activities that are going on in these business units.
Al Kinnear
But how would you explain maybe using compassion and awareness, of the different learner audiences like how how do you use this, the different backgrounds and the different audiences to, you know, increase engagement or motivation or even retention within those that that you're, you know, working with?
Joshua Remerowski
Well, I think the first thing starts with knowing like, as a, as a leader of the learning function that that touches, you know, all those businesses from a global sense is that I don't have all the answers. And and not pretending that I do. So it starts there and really from there working down to say, like, what is the voice of the employee?
Joshua Remerowski
What do the employees saying or need? What are the people in these individual operating companies that run their own learning functions, that run their own businesses? What are they seeing? What gaps are, you know, there that were before I got here almost a year ago. and then what things do we need to tackle? You know, tackle first.
Joshua Remerowski
And I think there's the other pieces, like where do they fit into as an employee? Do they understand working for a holding company or a portfolio company, whatever way you might want to position it. Do they understand like really what they're a part of in the broader scheme? And so for me, it's really going, into the businesses is how I spent my first four months with the company and seeing what do these people do?
Joshua Remerowski
What aren't we providing them? And as we've been going through our own HR transformation and starting to figure out how we can put in really all of the systems and, and technology over the next 2 to 3 years to meet those needs. What things don't we know? and so for me, it's it's been, really just. Letting go of the ego of thinking, you know, what's what's best and really listening to what the employees say they need.
Joshua Remerowski
And sometimes I think you might think it's the shiniest thing or the best piece of technology that they need, but a lot of our employees just need access to the basics and the fundamentals in their growth and development. And if we can just do that right, you will serve them, a lot better by creating common systems, common processes, common languages that that they can, you know, work with and grow it.
Joshua Remerowski
And so that's what I'm going to focus is just, you know, listening and adapting and slowly testing those things based on the feedback and making those changes without doing anything too abrupt. And that's not just from the frontline employees that that's from like the managers, standpoint. So there's a lot of things that I can just say, we're changing all of this in my first year and making all these changes, and we're training you on this, and this is this leadership competency.
Joshua Remerowski
And, we're not going to do this anymore. And some of that you have to do. But I don't even know the culture well enough myself in that first year to really make those. And so I think you can be more do more harm than good. by not really trying to understand the uniqueness of there's 18 different, you know, there's these different companies with different cultures and they're in different countries.
Joshua Remerowski
And it just goes back to like, I don't know at all. And you have to to rely on the people to provide the voice, and you have to see through some of it right, to, to make those decisions. But that's really been the process. And, and so now as we move through our, our transformation, again, a big thing that really we're, we're aiming towards is providing like what are the right fundamentals to provide things on emotional intelligence, leading, leading through change, how to how to coach, how to be a team, how to be a team in a remote environment, how to be a team and a face to face environment, hybrid environment.
Joshua Remerowski
So and really standardizing more or more of those, you know, offerings and then ultimately get them deeper into the organization. So we fundamentally, I would say, have a big opportunity to serve people deeper, from a stand and layer, perspective in the organization. And so that's really been the approach. And, you know, as I continue to learn, over the next year or two years or however long I get to lead this function, you know, in the organization, just continuing to serve, focus on serving those people, not just, what I think is is best as an expert, because that doesn't mean it's going to meet their needs.
Joshua Remerowski
they're just at a different place on their journey than where I am coming from. A much larger company that, you know, a little more mature. And in their journey themselves.
Al Kinnear
That's interesting. So, in effect, you know, the fact you have 18 different companies is is, you know, the reason you seem so decentralized when we're discussing your strategy. And I would imagine that you focus a lot of time, with maybe learning councils in each of these regions or areas, creating kind of regional learner destinations. Would that be true?
Joshua Remerowski
So what we're doing right now is we have a we just have a learning community call where because of the decentralized nature, to kind of build more awareness of what's happening and different operating companies and different localities. And for each our transformation, we are going to be standing up a not only a learning council, but, you know, what is our learning governance model?
Joshua Remerowski
What is our, you know, leadership, you know, pyramid or, or approach that standardize because of that decentralized nature and letting all these companies operate as their own businesses for a long time, you have varied approaches. You have. And that's and everything varied. Sales methodologies vary, and that can be your secret sauce for for many years. but at some point you can't scale that, at a company, you know, for a company that is now our size and it's going to continue to grow.
Joshua Remerowski
So yes, we have some of that, I would say, like our identity group has a really good counsel in place. And for 2024, that's what we're going to be establishing is fundamentally what does that look like paired with what our learning strategy is past 2025. And then obviously, you know, what's what's our approach? What's where are we in the, learning maturity?
Joshua Remerowski
You know, if you look at a learning maturity model, we're still early on because our company is, for all intents and purposes, a seven year old company. So we are still a startup in many ways, even though we trade at a $24 billion, you know, market cap and do billions of dollars of revenue. it we're just it's a unique position to be to where a lot of our companies, some of them have been around 75 years, some of them have been around a few years.
Joshua Remerowski
it is a really interesting thing to be a part of. And the great thing is we're a continuous improvement company at its core. So for us, even with the decentralized nature, just our focus in general is just to continue to improve what we do, how we do it, and listen to the voices, you know, that know best from our operating companies for what we're missing.
Joshua Remerowski
and not just try to pretend from some ivory tower that you know, that I know all the things you should do, because that's just not not realistic.
Al Kinnear
I how deep how deep into your, role at Ford of were you when, during like, the height of Covid, you know, in, in spring of 2020, was that your beginning or or had you been there for some time?
Joshua Remerowski
So I started at Ford of about a year ago. I was leading the learning for the learning function for the customer org at Walmart during Covid. and that was a really hectic time, obviously, to lead any function in any business. we had went from hiring zero people remotely to ten over 10,000 people remotely in a couple weeks span.
Joshua Remerowski
So we had to change everything that that we did what we knew, how we did it, who supported it. and the biggest thing for me was really understanding what I was asking of the people that worked for me. I had a very large team at Walmart. I had about 300 people in my, my learning organization, which is much different than what I have here at board.
Joshua Remerowski
And, and quite honestly, it, it was just working side by side with, with my people, because they had to work a lot of hours to change a lot of content. you know, I was training stuff. They were training stuff. I mean, we were all being asked to do things that, really allowed us to meet the needs of our customers, which are customers, and learning and development are employees, like, those are the people we serve.
Joshua Remerowski
And we had to do everything we could to serve them so that they could serve. Obviously, our customers at Walmart, which are the consumers that that buy, you know, buy our products. and the merchants and other things that can we do business with and support. So, yeah, Covid was a wild, a wild time, working for, for such a large company and then coming here when I first got the board of, they had just started when I was a year ago, meeting in person again, like they had been doing everything fully remote.
Joshua Remerowski
in a manufacturing setting, for the most part, all the way until, you know, 2022. And so now it's been full steam ahead of trying to get back to normalcy. And so I've been, you know, on strapped on the back of a rocket ship for the last, 12, 12 months. So it's been a it's been a wild ride while there.
Al Kinnear
I mean, if you recall, the big themes, you know, going into Covid were, you know, it's all we talked about was learning in the flow of work, learning in the flow of work, learning in the flow of work. And then, you know, the Covid response went to 100% digital. And then we all live the life of zoom and, and, it's no news to anyone but that pendulum, kind of the Covid rebound on the the pendulum where it went from digital and then it became accepted to start, you know, doing instructor led training again.
Al Kinnear
But that took some time. And now we see, when you speak to the Brandon Hall Group, you know, the influx of instructor led training over the last year is massive, right? Everyone wants face to face and and, little digital. Where do you see where do you kind of see those learning modalities going and, and, you know, in when the pendulum, it's always moving.
Al Kinnear
But where do you see it coming out of, you know, this Covid rebound folks are referring to. And now the fact that we've kind of gotten through all these IELTS and and there's a bit of a mix, where do you see that blend? Do you think it'll ever get back to where we were previous to to Covid, or do you see kind of new horizons in in the learning techniques?
Joshua Remerowski
I think you're probably going to see it split in two directions for a little while. I think you're going to see some people double down on return to office, and face to face training. And I think you're probably might see some other people double down on remote work and, you know, saving costs on having a ton of appreciating assets and an additional liabilities just based on how their is.
Joshua Remerowski
We have there's a lot of businesses out there that just have a ridiculous amount of debt. And obviously the Federal Reserve and everything else that's going on with inflation not boding well for for the amount of debt that those companies have taken on. So I think they're really trying to figure out how to to balance that. So I think you're probably going to see a split for a little while where people double down in two different directions and both are probably out of need, and then you'll probably will probably end back up somewhere in the middle where we'll get back to blended learning, I think.
Joshua Remerowski
I think at some point we'll get to a future with, you know, technology is good enough to really, I think, do the things people dream about with AR and VR and some of the other things that are out there when, you know, probably, and economies of scale, you can get them at better prices than you can to do.
Joshua Remerowski
Most people are priced out of being able to do anything with those at scale. And so it's all very niche. It's all very shiny, and it gets you a Brandon Hall or an ATV award, which is great, but it's mostly not sustainable for most of you know, organizations are just they're they're priced out of it. And so I think you're going to see that I think you're going to see that like kind of like little hourglass effect where which was probably what we've seen with learning modalities.
Joshua Remerowski
And for the last, you know, 30, 30 years. and I think part of that is because no one spends the time to actually implement something a new way in a purposeful way. So if you look at, and it goes back to that learning maturity model where, most people fall in a reactive state of learning and development and that's what happened during Covid.
Joshua Remerowski
Covid happened. Holy crap. We can't do all the things that we used to do reactively. We're going to move into virtual. But if you think about what most companies did for virtual, they just either moved a bunch of PowerPoints into e-learning and did just digitize them, or they copy and pasted all those same trainings and then just did them via zoom.
Joshua Remerowski
Nothing about their approach, changed. Nothing about how they use the learning science changed. they didn't evaluate if any of these trainings were actually effective in the first place. For the most part, it was just a copy and paste, you know, switch. And I think when you see that with that react business with most learning and development organizations, because most of them are are still so early in, in a maturity model, that's why you're seeing us kind of go back to face to face and what we know, because that's what they're comfortable with and that's what they could execute.
Joshua Remerowski
I think probably at the highest level. Right. Because that's what their their organization is maybe, you know, equipped for to support. And so I think it's the future and what we talked about a little bit, when you get to like a truly at the other end of the spectrum of a learning maturity model, where you're truly doing something innovative, where your employees have much more say and what they learn, how they learn it when they learn it.
Joshua Remerowski
most companies are an ocean, you know, away from doing that because they didn't implement anything to, like, create this sustained way of doing things, during Covid because of that reactive nature. So they're gonna have to work their way out of that. I would say even the, you know, the last company I work for, this company, like, I think there's just a lot of reactive nature.
Joshua Remerowski
And, you know, it's a pandemic. That's what you have to do. But at some point, people have to say, purposely plan and spend the time and our microwave society where they want everything to happen fast and say, well, how do we actually make this leap from a reactive organization and to a truly innovative one? And that takes thought, it takes money and it takes planning.
Joshua Remerowski
And, for us, that's where we want to get in the next, you know, five years is to get to a place where, we aren't reactive. We can move from reactive to being proactive, and then we can move from being proactive to being truly innovative as a learning organization. And that's going to require a lot of time, a lot of working hours.
Joshua Remerowski
and there's going to be other contingencies that happen with that. So for me, I think you're just going to see that split. And, it'll be interesting to see who comes out better, you know, during that time. But I think, you know, a lot of them are just going to go back to, oh, I got to go face to face and fly and do this thing and travel, and you're going to go right back to the middle and then eventually sort itself back out for what's the next flavor of the month thing.
Joshua Remerowski
And in the space and people kind of branch off again.
Al Kinnear
So when we talk about moving from reactive to proactive and then into the innovative space that we've just discussed, you know what? There is a role for empathy there. Clearly, you're not going you're not going to be able to, as in your words, sit in your ivory tower and dictate. But also, do you feel, do you feel that there is a change in the pace of play that has emanated one?
Al Kinnear
I think from from Covid there was, you know, the reactive nature of the requirements during that period. It pushed the pace of play, and I think there's been a bit of a hangover there where pace of play has improved or stayed, you know, rather high. but also, you know, we have this impact of Gen Z moving into the workforce.
Al Kinnear
And, you know, both my children happen to be Gen Z, and they've had a mobile phone in their hands since the day they could walk. So do you see that impacting pace of play or is it is it is it because of COVID's reactive nature or what are your thoughts there. Because there clearly is, uptick in pace of play expectation from learners, within and cultures.
Joshua Remerowski
Well, one, I think a lot of people that are just, I think in, in general using technology to do anything, are learning in the way that I think most organizations don't provide. So they get awareness of something where it's like there's this tip or trick or how to do something or this tool, and then they kind of choose what videos and what things do they want to watch that are most interesting to learn that thing and then and then they make a decision from there.
Joshua Remerowski
Am I interested enough in whatever this thing is to actually then obtain a skill? Right. So I've now started learning knowledge. I picked the people I want to learn from. I pick the things I find most interesting, whether it's reading an article, listening to a podcast, watching a YouTube video, whatever. And now I might say I want to actually gain that skill and I'm going to like put my time and effort into to scaling that skill.
Joshua Remerowski
And that's how we learned pretty much anything is through that level of curiosity. And I think it the, the pace of play itself is changing, not because of anything generationally, at least from my perspective. I think it's changing because the way organizations, were operating prior to inflation, prior to a pandemic, prior to, you know, the, the fed changing rates and really, you know, causing a lot of people to reevaluate their balance sheets for probably the next few years is, well, I don't have as much room, to do things with.
Joshua Remerowski
So everyone's chasing after, you know, more money, more, more sales in their funnel, more leadership gaps. I mean, they're literally just trying to accelerate everything, because their margins and room for error is a lot thinner. And I think, you know, the whole quiet quitting thing. And people are talking about that, I mean, I think quite quitting the existing forever.
Joshua Remerowski
It's just no one paid attention to it until there was less, you know, fat on on the hog or whatever it was. Right. Like, everyone's a lot, a lot thinner. when it comes to like, what money they have or, what their experience, you know, what they've experienced through the pandemic and, and inflation. So they're just chasing things, I think, at a, at a hyper scale.
Joshua Remerowski
The problem is that then translates to typically the, you know, the front line more than anything, right? Make more product, sell more product, make more innovations to your software. And you know, can you keep up with the pace of what's needed to keep them informed as all these changes are just continuously happening? And I think most companies can't because they eliminate managerial roles or they eliminate learning and development roles or HR roles or whatever, the other roles that actually support the rapid pace of change that's happening in an organization.
Joshua Remerowski
And it kind of goes back to having empathy, and then you burn people out and they quit. And I think you're seeing this in a lot of organizations where, they're kind of stuck in this, you know, insanity loop, and there's ways out of it, but it requires them investing in areas that I think just people have historically cut rather than investor double down.
Joshua Remerowski
And so that's what I found most interesting. And just what I, what I've noticed is, you know, can we provide things in the, you know, the way they need done. And that's what we want to do eventually is be able to provide, the ability to have that curiosity in your learning and, like, stumble upon, the skills and knowledge through your journey and not just be told this is the path you you have to walk down as a learner.
Joshua Remerowski
And yes, there's some things like that, like there's some guardrails you have to provide, but that's just not how anyone does anything today in the way they learn. and so you have to provide some of that variety and autonomy for people, to go find the things that interest them.
Al Kinnear
That's a great point. And when you when you talk about people seeking out their own, you know, materials online to to learn about something, I mean, you can watch Instagram Reels or TikTok reels and learn how to play any guitar song that was ever recorded. And, and I I'm guilty of that. And it's amazing. It's amazing. And I think what you're touching on though, and these are your words in our in our conversation about a month ago and we talked about this episode, you know, you you really discussed a lot about motivating your learners with knowledge and curiosity.
Al Kinnear
So I can see that you're, you know, there's this pace of play. Change is dictated by, you know, what's available to us now in social media and other things. And, and I can tell that, you know, utilizing that within your organizations. to really I would have to say and correct me if I'm wrong, but that that allows you to address this pace of play issues by using the knowledge and curiosity factors to motivate your learners.
Al Kinnear
Or perhaps I'm wrong. What are your thoughts there?
Joshua Remerowski
Yeah, I mean, that is the direction that we want to continue to head down and and scale is get to the point where not only is it that knowledge and curiosity, you know, factor available, but it's available at scale to the organization. So when you're someone in a at a manufacturing side and you want to do something else and for whatever reason, let's say it's learn, you know, Python because you're, you're interested in doing something with automation, because maybe that's the way you feel the world is going, and now you have some awareness of what Python is.
Joshua Remerowski
You should immediately be able to see what things we offer. And if and if you offer those, then you should be able to immediately see are there are there gigs or things within our organization that you can then go say, I've begun to learn this skill to your point, like I've begun to learn these, you know, new, how to use these new notes and strings on the guitar, to play a song and learn these new skills and automation.
Joshua Remerowski
How can I go to try to apply that and some project that's happening within, you know, the work and that's the future we want to march towards. And we hope to attain is getting to the point where you can do that, where you can provide, this type of gig economy with within your company, because that's the things that the Gen Z folks is in the gig economy.
Joshua Remerowski
They can go do whatever they want, whenever they want. I mean, it's you can literally go learn skills like you're talking about and then put yourself up, for business and Upwork or Fiverr or whatever it is, and, you know, own as a contractor or, you know, you're your own individual operator of an LLC or however you want to structure your business.
Joshua Remerowski
And so more companies just need to shift to that where they provide that gig economy with within their own business so that people can grow their skills for the future of work. And so for us, that's really what we want to be able to provide. And it's going to take time, will well, will fail and experiment and do all those things.
Joshua Remerowski
But I think that's where you're going to see, when people can see the possibilities of like, oh, I can learn this thing and I, I can attempt it. And maybe it's not as hard as it is. I thought it was right. Like playing a new song. Well, as they build confidence in whatever that is and they see value in whatever that is, that kind of curiosity snowball continues to wear.
Joshua Remerowski
Well, now, they might tell their other kids about, hey, I'm learning this thing. It's really cool I did this, you know, or I learned how to do 3D printing or whatever the new thing is. And well, now they might be interested or motivated. And so rather than, you know, your top executives telling people they have to learn these new skills, you have a more grassroots approach, from people sharing what they're learning organically because you've made it available.
Joshua Remerowski
So for us, we think that's and just me personally, that's where I think the future of learning will be is where if you can truly decentralize the approach, to where you make, you know, the awareness, the knowledge, the skill and the opportunity to master these things within the company in some form of gig economy, whatever it looks like, I think you're going to have to learn as as you go, that is going to be a great value proposition in general to, to create better, you know, stick rates to create, you know, I think better organic, learning and growth and development and ultimately build new skills for the future of work, you know,
Joshua Remerowski
through that because, you know, then you're going to get people that now that they learn, they want to teach. And it's like, well, great, you what have you, you've learned all these things. Let's have you teach people in your call center. People in your manufacturing site, your sales team. now they become teachers, which is the ultimate, you know, way to to show that leadership and, to really build more, more empathy, to be able to say, like, not only do I understand that you need to learn this, I'm willing to spend my time and energy to teach you this.
Joshua Remerowski
And so, you know, we're quite a few years away from that. But I think that's to me is like where you build that, that community of learning. That's where you build, you know, a true solid base in your company to where people are sharing, learning and helping each other grow. And they're not just so reliant on some learning and development function.
Joshua Remerowski
and then your tech can enable that too, where, you know, I'm learning from them. They're not just learning from whatever, you know, some executive or whoever provides. They're the experts. And so once you enable them, I think that's where you can accelerate and keep up with the, the patient speed, within your business because now they're automating things.
Joshua Remerowski
So now they're fixing all this administrative crap that doesn't bring value because they're closest to it. And oh, by the way, now they're skilled to solve this problem. So I think that's going to be the most interesting thing. and, and that's what I really hope we can achieve up through as we go through, you know, transforming our organization and really trying kind of a new, I think, new approach.
Al Kinnear
That's fascinating. Josh, I have to tell you that, you know, in speaking to you again today, it's obvious to me that empathy is part of every fiber of your being. And and it it has become a cornerstone to your approach in this, innovative strategy you have where you know yourself acknowledging we're moving from reactive to proactive and into innovation, within your learning and development.
Al Kinnear
So, in closing, would you have any advice for other learning professionals looking to increase and cultivate empathy within their culture? because you you do speak about empathy, in a way that that, you know, I've, I've seldom heard in other discussions and so I congratulate you on that. But I think if there's any advice you had for other learning professionals, what would that be?
Joshua Remerowski
I mean, it's I think it first starts with you don't know it all. So like, if you can leave your ego aside and understand that you don't know it all and don't have all the answers, that is what is going to allow you to go and get closer to the heartbeat of whatever your business is. And the more you can go see.
Joshua Remerowski
What is it really like for the people that work with your company in a true day to day sense, you know that they don't have access to to computers or for them to get access for computers. They have to go and leave being productive in their shift or they're on the road all the time and sales and, the only thing they have is their phone.
Joshua Remerowski
They don't take their computer because it's another thing to to bring or whatever. Like when you can really go to gemba and see and experience what people are doing or just go, do, you know, figure out a way to go, do the job. I think it's the Starbucks CEO did a great, you know, version of this recently as they, you know, he took over was I'm going to be a barista and I'm going to go into the the stores and experience what the people in my company at the front line, but that provide the customer experience and coffee every day.
Joshua Remerowski
Like what are they experiencing? You have to do that. And I think the leaders that do that and learning and development professionals want to be seen as leaders in the business. They have to get closer to the business and see what's happening. And for those that haven't done, you know, front line work like I have and experience what it's like to be a truck driver with limited training or a field technician with limited training or a sales professional that got a two day training and is told you have to go sell, you know, sell products that he barely knows, how can you go see what that's like and then enhance that experience so that people,
Joshua Remerowski
can not only get what's, you know, foundational to doing their job and staying employed, but then what do they need from a continuous education standpoint to then carry those things forward and be successful and get a raise and get a promotion and all the other things people aspire, you know, to do and to eventually be. And so that to me is just like the key is just staying as close to the business as you can, and you know, our company, our executives model.
Joshua Remerowski
This is just such an inspiring thing to be a part of as they go and do kaizen events and take and literally move the equipment and help solve the problems. That's the culture. As a learning and development professional that you want to cultivate, because that's the only way you're going to really, truly able to understand is to go put yourself in their shoes, and to build that empathy.
Joshua Remerowski
And everyone says there's there's not time, to do that. But I imagine they can stop building some PowerPoint deck or something that they're doing, you know, today and really build, you know, close connections to the business and potentially skip some, you know, some level of development, like you're talking about moving potentially from reactive all the way to innovative because they they know the heartbeat of the business.
Al Kinnear
That's just great advice. So Josh, I really want to thank you for joining us today. This this has been just a fantastic conversation that I've thoroughly enjoyed. And I appreciate your commitment to our podcast and the time you took out, to join us. So thank you very much.
Joshua Remerowski
Thank you.
